I often get people that ask me questions about Zillow through my profile. I try to answer each one, so keep them coming! They give me good fodder for blog posts! But it is also interesting to hear what is going through your minds with regards to Zillow.
I was recently asked the following question from Carl Martens:
Zillow really hit the market strong by providing a site where homeowners could find out what their home was worth, however once the data was determined to be inaccurate Zillow caught a bad rep...what has Zillow done to correct this and/or regain the trust of consumers?
To answer his question:
Actually, based on internal research, we don't have a bad rep with homeowners. We found that 88% of our audience is likely to recommend Zillow to someone they know. And 65% of our monthly traffic comes from repeat visitors. Further, 25% came 10+ times last month! So I don't think people would recommend the site or continue to visit it if they were having trust issues.
Zestimates are something that we are constantly working to improve. However, we know that we will never be 100% accurate. We have tried to be as transparent as possible about this by 1) Posting our accuracy numbers for every county and 2) by placing a disclaimer next to every Zestimate that says if they would like a more accurate valuation the homeowner should contact a real estate professional. We have also let home owners 'claim their home'which allows a homeowner to update/correct any information displayed online by creating an 'owner's estimate'. An owner can publish information such as a kitchen remodel or a view they may have that adds value.
We are also working to expand our product offering, beyond Zestimates, to make Zillow a site where people routinely come to discuss real estate. Since launching Zillow in Feb 2006, examples of some of the functionality we have added include:
- The ability to advertise "For Sale" properties for free. You can upload unlimited photos to each listing.
- A Real Estate Guide with 100's of articles that anyone can read, post to or edit.
- Q&A modules on each home which anyone can ask or answer questions about a specific home.
- Over 6,500 online neighborhood communities across more than 130 U.S. cities where people can discuss their neighborhoods. This is a huge opportunity for real estate professional to jump in and showcase their neighborhood expertise.
And right now we are working on a tool that will allow Brokers to bulk upload their listings for freeto the site. All of these components of Zillow are attracting an audience of about 4.4 million uniques each month.
Hope this answers your question!
Sara
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Sara,
You are absolutely right that Zillow hit the ground very strong, and got a lot of attention quickly mostly because of the focus on the 'Zestimates'. It's an interesting concept, but due to the inaccuracy it is not very usable. Pricing is extremely important to place a property for sale, and can not be taken lightly. The issue I have with this is the responsibility in suggesting a 'value' that is highly inaccurate and could cost the owner tens of thousands (i.e. within 10% of selling price, about 60% of the time, with an 8% margin of error for Florida . . . that's alot of money in equity to "gamble").
I think Zillow has a lot of nice features. The automated pricing feature would be nice, but as we all know, this would require large scale integration of systems which may or may not happen.
Ryan- Thanks for reading!
Kathy- Thanks for the well-thought out comment. I agree that 8% margin of err can equal thousands (that is why the home owner should use a RE agent!). One of the changes we have made recently to the site is to promote the Sales Price much higher on the page, and demote the Zestimate. They used to sit side-by-side in the title on the home detail page. We can't remove the Zestimate because obviously this is what we are known for and a reason people do come to the site. But once a professional pricing opinion has been made and posted to the site, we give it much higher visibility online.
Carl- Thanks for the subject of the post.
Other than Trulia are there any other services/sites like Zillow? - Other valuation sites are cyberhomes.com and realestateabc.com.
Trulia definitely has done a great job growing over the past two years and developed a very interesting product in Trulia Voices. I think they are around 2 million unique users a month now. However, a differentiator is that they don't have a database of homes, like we do. We are really working online real estate from more of a social media aspect.
One day there may be a website that you will go to to get the home value and appraisals will be no longer.
hmmmm...
:-)
Where is this "by placing a disclaimer next to every Zestimate that says if they would like a more accurate valuation the homeowner should contact a real estate professional."located at? I ran a couple Zestimates and I didn't see it anywhere on the page with your Zigures on the homes worth. It seems to be playing hide-n-seek on my computer screen. Would you be a dear and please help me find it on the page with the Zestimate?
What happens exactly if another real estate agent "Tells you one of my listings are for sale?" Do they get to have their photo and contact information beside it? I see a huge NAR ethical violation here in the making....I pray some agent uploads one of mine to your site.
I am sure that you are a very nice person. I know that Drew is. However, I do not believe that you have my best interest at heart or the general public. It is all about money generation and entry into a new market to exploit. For me...its about creating value and making a difference in peoples lives. There isn't any conquest for me in taking care of people.
Kind of reminds me of a story in the Bible where Jesus threw the money changers out of the temple right along with their tables of money. Like I said, I am sure that you are a very nice person....but please let any Georgia salesperson know that if they ever visit my office....I will throw them out on their rear end.
Zillow is a wolf in sheeps clothing.
Pretty strong language there Jessica. We can, as the politicians say, disagree without being disagreeable.
Participation in Zillow or any other site is optional and you are free to use the tools provided to you or not, depending on how you want to approach your own business. But you will encounter prospects or sellers who have been to the Zillow site, so it would be good for you to be familiar with the product.
The output of any of the national databases is limited to information available on line without actually visiting the property or the neighborhood. They are only able to seek average costs per square foot in an area and do the math for each individual property. My "boots on the ground" experience in my local neighborhoods (or yours in Griffin, GA) is still useful to close the loop and deliver a real opinion of value to my clients or prospects.
But I use Zillow for the benefits I can receive. Their lists of comparable sales are better than my MLS database and distances from my subject property are provided. I use Zillow and other databases to check the reasonableness of my work and to provide me with neighborhood statistics and trends. If I add my listing to their info, it is one more spot where my clients home has been shown to potential buyers. And there is no cost to me. All this fits into my method for my business - if it doesn't do anything for you, that is OK and is certainly your choice.
But Sara and her colleagues do their job by educating us on what is available on their site and taking back our feedback so that their product can be improved. I have seen them do their job with courtesy and professionalism. When you have heard what they have to say, you are free to make your own decision for your business. But many AR members see Zillow as a partner - even if their objective and ours are not the same.
Thank you for bringing your opinion to the forum
I am glad many AR members see Zillow as a partner despite totally different objectives. I am a bit more selective about who I crawl into bed with.
(o:
Jessica - I hope you never lose your passion for your beliefs and opinions. I am much older and I can still get wound up for a good discussion. The world would be much more dull without your thoughts and those of many like you. My relationship with Zillow is a bit more platonic than you describe. For me they are a tool to help me do my job. How I use them to serve the needs of my clients is up to me - and I agree with you in that I do not compromise my services to my clients. You and I may use different methods - but we both put the client first.
I just got a Zestimate on my parent's house...it is about $50,000 less than where it should be. My parents live in a subdivision where there are 7 different floorplans...of which there are houses in their cul-de-sac with the same floorplan. It is no surprise that the houses that have recently sold have Zestimates about $50K higher than my parent's. My parent's property has the largest lot in the subdivision and it has been landscaped and decorated beautifully. My mother is sitting here next to me...she's visiting from Chicago and seeing what my job duties consist of...I told her the Zestimate and right away she's like..."oh no...that is way off", then I told her what the next door neighbor's house was listed at and she really got animated. Although you state there are disclaimers and what not I'm still in the belief that this tool does more harm than good. Sort of like airing explicit television programs on TV with a dislaimer in the beginning...regardless, disclaimer or not it will still upset some people. The Zestimate feature of the site is useless information and in my belief discredits Zillow. Here's the sad part...my parent's house and another nieghbor of ours have the lowest Zestimates in that cul-de-sac, yet they have the best houses both inside and out...the difference...their homes have not sold and they have been the sole owners since the houses were built some 15+ years ago.
One impressive upside: The use of Microsoft Virtual Earth is great...whenever I'm homesick or missing my "younger years" I know I can go to your site and recall memories of growing up in that house...the views provided are great!
Sara,
Zillow has a lot of useful features for homeowners and real estate professionals. It's carving a nice niche for itself in the business. Once the zestimates become more accurate, then it really is going to make some noise.
Hi, it's David from Zillow,
I can confirm that we are working on enhancements to Zestimate accuracy and data coverage. We totally agree that this is important.
But (isn't there always a "but") ... you have misunderstood Zillow if you think that it's our goal to predict the exact price at which every home will list and at which there will be a willing buyer. That is not the goal for Zestimate values - they are a starting point for research purposes, but not the final word on home values. Zestimates don't replace the role of a local expert in either the appraisal, CMA or offer and purchase processes.
In addition to the information that Sara mentioned, you should note that every Zestimate on Zillow has a value range with a minimum and maximum value. We are thereby very clearly indicating that the value of the home may fall in that range and is not necessarily equal to the Zestimate value.
@Ted - thank you.
@Kris - no, there won't.
@Jennifer - yes, accurate estimates are more difficult in a changing market, just like CMA's are. That said, we have the benefit of having our estimates generated by a computer who has no aspirations for a homes appreciation and so it's easier for us to react to a downturn in the market than it is for your sellers.
@Carl - I'm glad you enjoy the images. Please show your mom the value range on her Zestimate and tell her that I'm sorry her Zestimate value is not more accurate. Yes, Zillow is nothing if not provocative. The funny thing I've learned here is that the next guy won't mind us taking a guess at how much his home's worth but hates that we display images of his back yard. Everyone's different. Being provocative attracts a massive audience to Zillow - it's an audience you can promote your listings to - for free.
@Candy - Texas is a real challenge for us as a result of the non-disclosure issue. We're working on it.
@Michael - You miss the fact that many of the folks checking their Zestimates are not in the market for an appraisal or a CMA - many are just homeowners checking the value of their home. We do suggest that users who need a precise estimate consult a professional. Your feedback is always appreciated. Best wishes dealing with the fires etc.
@Jessica - The fact that Zillow's in a different business to yours is exactly why we make a great partner. You wouldn't partner with a competitor, now would you? Zillow is a media company just like a newspaper. There's no good reason to be suspicious and plenty of value to using Zillow to grow your business and sell your clients' listings. To answer your question about the explanatory text on the site ... you should see a link explaining zestimate accuracy at the bottom of every page - and if you click on the question mark next to any home's Zestimate value you will read:
"A Zestimate home valuation is Zillow's estimated market value. It is not an appraisal. Use it as a starting point to determine a home's value.
@Sara - great post! There's a world of misinformation about Zillow but I think you just made it slightly smaller. :-)Learn more
The Value Range is the high and low estimated market value for which Zillow values a home. The more information, the smaller the range, and the more accurate the Zestimate. See data coverage and accuracy table"
Thanks for the reply. However, I partner with competitive Realtors in my market every day. We all partner to show each other listings and compensation. So, yes I would. Yes, I do.
Like I told Drew awhile back: Put it on the home page. Put it on the Zestimate. Don't make it so difficult to find. I see how many unique visitors visit your site. How many Zestimates do they perform? How many of those unique visitors click on the link? Just curious....
I am sure that your founders can afford a camcorder and a pretty girl model or handsome guy model...Why not put a video up on the home page that welcomes people to your site and encourages them to always seek the advice of a Realtor for a more accurate estimate of value?
Do that for me and I will consider putting something on there. I doubt it...but I will consider it.
Zillow is way out of line for Hudson Ohio!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hundreds of thousands off. People are looking at those Zestimates as gospel and making crazy offers. Ridiculous - a $700,000 property that just sold last year shows up as $511,000 - and it now has over $100,000 in renovations since the purchase.
Another that appraised for $500,000 in 2006 is shown as $307,000. Whatever!!! Check it out for yourself: 204 E. Streetsboro, Hudson, OH 44236 and 48 Aurora, Hudson, OH 44236.
How can anyone take Zillow seriously with results like this? Zestimates are USELESS.
Sara,
WOW! You sure took the bull by the horns here!
I remember fondly our conversation in Chicago.
You are handling yourself very well here as well!
Take care,
Lucky :)
Great discussion . . .
Think this is one that is going to go on for a long time in many places. In fact, some of what I have to say will be saved for a post of my own. . .
Aside from the nuisance of buyers and sellers relying on Zestimates (and the fact that between Zillow and Zaxby's I'm ztarting to say zeverything with a Z!), I find Zillow a great marketing resource, and not a competitor. I'm sure there is--and should be--profit motive on Zillow's part, but as of yet haven't seen any hands dipping in my pocket. I benefit from the (free) exposure of my listings on a high traffic site, and the possibility of leads through the community sections. Enhanced (paid) exposure is my choice.
Zestimates? In my small rural market they are invariably off, if even available at all, but then I myself often have a tough time with comps in this area. And sometimes (ssshhh, don't tell anyone) sometimes I too am wrong and we have to adjust the list price! The way I see it, dealing with buyers or sellers fixated on any Internet estimate of value is not much different to those who get their opinions shaped by neighbors, friends, parents, tax records, or what the house down the street sold for. Nothing to get worked up about.
If they want to rely on a computer generated number over my professional opinion, cavaet emptor / caveat vendor. It's a matter of trust. If someone hires me, I assume it's because they acknowledge a need for my services in the transaction, and it's my job to educate them as to the truth, or as close to it as we can get.
(And then I leave it up to their loan officer explain to them why the 6.39% rate on a home loan they saw on Bankrate doesn't apply to them . . .)
At some point people have to learn and accept that not everything we see online can be taken at face value, without additional effort and research.
Ok, Trent, I do have a lot of fun with Zillow's tools, and I put my listings on there too, but Zillow needs to find a way to overcome the shortcomings or make it clear that these zestimates are for entertainment only - or maybe a surgeon general's warning that they may be hazardous to seller's health :) as in when they have a heart attack from the low value of their property...
Sara, can we as agents do anything to help remedy the poor quality of home estimates in our area, such as give feedback to Zillow?
Sara,
Great post. We all need to be up to date on Zillow and help our clients understand their positioning. It is so important to know what our clients are looking at and to communicate to our clients how it looks from our side. I include information in my SOI emails and newsletters on this type of information and how it is changing our markets. Thanks for the info! It is a great new world out there and things are changing fast....I love it....we have to dance a bit....to keep up....but I feel it is all GOOD!
Hi, it's David from Zillow again -
@Trent - thanks, that's good feedback. Good luck with Zaxby's.
@Dawn - The most common reason for a Zestimate can be off is that the home's public facts are incomplete or incorrect. That is something you can help us with. Within the next few weeks we'll start using agents and owners' information to make Zestimates more accurate. To correct home facts, either the listing agent has to post the home for sale - or the owner can claim their home and update its facts. The streetboro house looks like a unique home in an exclusive neighborhood which presents a challenge for automated valuations - but the size we have for the home from the public records may also be wrong. Was it listed as a 3000 sq.ft. home?
@Patricia - thanks.
@Jessica - Touche' (though technically, you co-operate, not partner.) Consider that we intentionally used the word "estimate" when naming Zestimates -> we could add a thousand dancing sock-puppets to Zillow's home page and it wouldn't make it any clearer that these numbers are "estimates." Educating our users is important - we go so far as to transparently publish our accuracy metrics wherever we have Zestimates. How many Realtors publish the difference between their CMA's and sold prices? ;-)
@Michael - Not only is this information accessible on the front page but it's always one click away from the user - anywhere on the site. As I said to Jessica, we can't make it much more obvious than calling the value a Zestimate - we didn't call it a Z-value, or Z-appraisal - it's an estimate and our site's visitors get that.
@Jean - glad to hear it.
Renee-
Glad to see you are getting traffic to your website as a result of posting your listings on Zillow :)
You don't do it because you choose not to do it.
CMA's? When you have a 98% list price to sell price ratio (hekhmmmm like me) You wouldn't have any problems doing it. =]
@Michael - that's pretty funny but hardly good web design. Look at the rest of the content on Zillow's home page: there's a lot more to Zillow than Zestimate values and in fact there's not one Zestimate value displayed anywhere on that page. From a visitor's perspective, the text you added makes absolutely no sense there; it's totally unrelated to the content on that home page.
People are coming to Zillow for more than just Zestimates - they're searching for listings, discussing real estate, checking out famous homes etc. So, good web design involves putting the right information in the users hands at the right time. We explain Zestimates where there are Zestimates. I hope that make sense.
It also seems to me that you underestimate the intelligence of the real estate consumer and this is where I respectfully disagree with you; when people read "Zestimate" they understand that it's an estimate. In the few case where that may be confusing, users have instant access to detailed explanations of Zestimates and to actual measurements of our site's accuracy. Let's put the shoe on the other foot for a moment; do you publish the accuracy of your appraisals anywhere on your website?
@Michael - I also enjoy your feedback and apreciate the time and energy you put into this topic.
I just spoke with a few people here and am please to inform you that we've decided to put a link to About Zestimate™ values & accuracy in the search box on the home page with the next product release. The content on that page is too long for the home page and as I've pointed out, it's not relevant to all users - but if you're confused about Zestimates, there's no way you'll be able to miss this explanation.
I'll e-mail you to let you know when it's happened.
Please send me an e-mail when it goes live. I will go slumming that day and check it out. =] J/K
I understand the need to take baby steps...but you guys are getting there. Slowly but surely.
I need to ask a question on up-dating of the homes that are used to determine the comps.I find that when used by a seller or a buyer to get the value on an area that some of these homes sold are to old to be used in todays market.I myself do add my listing to the site and have had some off the wall estimates and pose the question do I leave it or delete it from the site ? The homes that it shows as comps are not even close to what I am listing in features or size.I as a Realtor know the difference because it is my job to know the area I am listing and selling and what homes are the same as what I am going to list for sale.The average consumer does not know that the one around the corner that sold either higher or lower does not compare to the home they have or want to buy.When I hear a buyer quote pricing off of any site they can search that is 50,000 lower than what they are buying I have to do damage control for the mistakes of inadequate info on the sites.Consumers look to the Web Sites for up to date information and take what is posted as or given to them as a solid price. On the other hand ones that are over valued also cause an issue with the same out come for the consumer as well.I think we have become an industry that has been flooded with to much incorrect information and sites that have not perfected the consept of controlling the information the consumer recieves by making sure it is up-dated every week or so. Our Realtor sites are up-dated every day for just that reason.Either do it correctly or not at all.
I also fell the site is a great tool when it becomes an up-dated system with more information fields that correctly search what a home has in more detail. That is why it is called a Comp not aall most !!
Thanks to everyone who posted a comment on this post. Your points-of-view are fascinating to hear and discuss. We are constantly digesting what we have from the real estate professional community. Special thanks to David G (from Zillow) for jumping in and addressing some of the concerns and questions. Michael really hit the nail on the head in his comment above with the following statement.
"David Gibbons from Zillow on a couple of occasions. He's been gracious and willing to listen to what I and others have to say. What I've come to realize is that they are making a real effort to put out some of the fire Zillow's drawn since it launched."
If you are OK with homeowners, why don't you let them opt out of the zestiamte, especially if it is inaccurate & they are trying to sell their home?
Isn't it true homeowners have asked for the opt-out?
Aaaaaaah Joe. We're going to have to find you a new question. ;-)
Seriously though - below this I've posted my reply from a week ago when I was asked that exact same thing by "sellsius" on your blog. I assumed you'd posted it (here's a link to that post for context.) Is it possible I had that conversation with Rudy? Anyhow, please read that post and my comments - I explained in some detail why it's important for Zillow to be a neutral destination, equally benefiting sellers AND buyers (and agents, brokers etc.) This win-win-win dynamic has been fundamental to Zillow's success so far and we're not messing with it. We acknowledge the fact that a seller's list price is infinitely more important than the Zestimate value but buyers (and others) are genuinely interested in Zestimate values, so no, we don't plan to remove those from the site.
Here's my response from the conversation referenced above;
"Sellsius - we’ve had this discussion countless times. As I have pointed out, the far more common complaint is feedback like GoodCall’s - i.e. “why is my home not on Zillow?” We listen intently to our users. Most people want their homes and Zestimates on the site and four million visitors vote for Zestimates with their mouse each month. You are wrong on this issue and every time we have discussed it, I have conceded that we’ve had some requests to have Zestimates removed from Zillow - so, you’re not breaking any news here.
I could introduce you to homeowners and professionals who are unhappy that their sale price and tax information is part of the public record. The first example you list above actually falls into that category. That doesn’t change the fact that transparent and publicly available property records are good for society and that we as a society should not make random exceptions to this law.
Transparency aside, do I need to point out that you are arguing against free speech here? Does it really surprise you that some people would like their Zestimate to be different?
We listen to our site’s visitors and have received had a lot of feedback from sellers and agents about Zestimates on listings. When a home is for sale its list price is FAR more important than the Zestimate value and user feedback has helped us to realize that. In response to this feedback, we’ve significantly redesigned the way listings are posted on Zillow to make the list price the primary value attached to the home. And we will continue to innovate for our sellers based on their feedback.
If you have any constructive feedback, we’d love to hear it. This discussion however is getting old."
Michael -
Sorry if you read my reply as flippant. Fact is, we gave this much thought before even launching Zillow. Zestimates were a big bet and Zillow's audience has clearly indicated that many many people value free and instant access to estimates on all homes. No-one benefits from 'hiding' Zestimates. Today, as you know, buyers can find free value estimates on many many media and brokerage sites; it makes no sense to remove them from Zillow - especially considering Zillow's the most transparent about accuracy and owner participation in data published on the home. Zillow is the only website where owners can claim their homes and publish facts and estimates.
With all due respect and with full appreciation that people's homes are their most valuable assets, there isn't a good argument for hiding Zestimates and there are about 4 million arguments every month for not hiding them. A true market outcome is not made more likely by removing transparency - if estimates are clearly ill informed, the owner or listing agent has the ability to set the record straight.
Remember that for better or for worse, a Zestimate is only an opinion of value - it's not an appraisal. We are quite confident that we've published that opinion in a prudent way.
We agree that the list price is far more important than the Zestimate value and it's treated as such on the site (e.g. find the Zestimate on this listing) Where we disagree is that it wouldn't benefit anyone (seller included) to 'hide' that Zestimate.
I am going to have to come back into this conversation - as I was one of the early commentors at the beginning of the thread.
Zillow is not free speech. Free speech is what gives Michael and the others the opportunity to voice their opinions. But while everybody gets their own opinions - they do not get their own facts.
Zillow is a commercial application of public records - and you don't opt out of public records any more than you can remove pages from the Supreme Court Reporter just because you don't agree with the result of the case.
There are a number of automated valuation systems available on the internet. Some are professionally oriented, some are targeted at consumers. Zillow seems to get a lot of flack because they are perhaps bigger and more innovative than some of the others. ("you can tell the pioneers - they are the ones with the arrows in their backs" - Adam Osborne, creator of the Osborne Computer)
The numbers provided by the Zestimate are approximate. Folks - Zillow has never visited the home in question. That is our job as Realtors or Appraisers. They don't take into account the new carpet in the living room ? It is not on the public records. But they have the sale price of all reported sales from public records and the square footage of the house - also from public records. They can do the math and come up with some excellent comparative information down to the neighborhood level. They can crunch numbers better than I can and they give me trends and patterns that I don't want to take the time to develop on my own. Do I take the Zestimate as something written on a stone tablet for Moses ? Of course not. I am going to use my professional knowledge and experience to adjust the value based upon the fact that I actually have visited the property and I know about the neighborhood, having been selling there for "x" number of years.
Zillow is a tool. I find it useful and I find that my clients have already looked at Zillow - so I think I need to be aware of what they are looking at so that I can give them my professional advice. But if any of my friends at AR don't like Zillow, my advice is - don't use it. Your choice. But you have real professional assets in Sara Bonert and David Gibbons and other Zillow representatives who are willing to listen to your views and constructive criticism and take your thoughts back to corporate to try to improve the product for your use. If you don't like Zillow today - tell them what you would like to see and come back in a few months and keep an open mind - because they seem to be responsive to our comments.
It is hard for me to understand what more we could ask for.
Michael--Well stated. We are in complete agreement.
Ted. The zestimate is NOT a public record. It is a proprietary creation of zillow.com. There is a difference.
The Zillow tool---A shovel is a tool, but it doesn't give you the right to dig up your neighbor's lawn. What I mean my that remark is that just because something is useful to you (or the buyer, or the advertiser) does not justify a violation of a homeowner's right, one of which is the right to REMOVE false or misleading information about their most prized possession. An inaccurate zestimate is false & misleading--- it is really that simple. If you disagree, then we will be forever miles apart.
Leaving an inaccurate zestimate (which Z readily admits is an error prone "first step") next to a calculated "for sale" price is unfair to the seller and may jeopardize their (& the LA) efforts to sell the property. It is the equivalent of me standing in front of your house with a sign that says "This house is only worth $300,000. This estimate was calculated using public data" --when you have it fairly listed for $340,000. I guess you would think that perfectly fine-- but your seller, if it were me, would show you the door.
To answer my own question : YES, owners have asked to opt-out (see this post: homeowner comments from Zillow forum (there are many more)
http://tinyurl.com/2dvcxf
Zillow's answer is no. This is the equivalent of saying THEY have the right to leave a grossly inaccurate estimate on your home, regardless of th e consequences to you. Hardly homeowner friendly. Downright unfriendly.
Also read this homeowner feelings from RipOff Report:
http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/0/207/RipOff0207856.htm
David: Here was my response from that post which you did NOT address:
First of all, inaccurate zestimates do not serve anyone in the RE marketplace. Surely you must admit that. But there they are– staring owners in the virtual face. And you say tough cookies– others have a right to see those inaccurate values too– and you say we’re missing the perspective. Geez, find me a padded wall, I need to bang my head.
David, Zillow is doing a good job in other areas— it is a shame they are missing the boat on owners’ rights. What Zillow fails to realize is owners DO have a say, a superior say– regardless of what’s good for buyers, advertisers, neighbors, other sellers, Zillow, VCs, etc. It’s their asset, for gosh’s sake!
This is not a case of balancing what’s good for the most people in the RE marketplace. It is about “rights” of the individual home owner — which outweigh the group’s desire to know stuff (leaving aside that no one needs to know an inaccurate zestimate– that is totally without value)
It appears clear to me (jf) that Zillow does not recognize the exclusive/superior rights of owners we set forth– they use the group to override them. Can you address each right and tell us if you recognize that right?
[Here were the homeowner rights we set forth. RIGHT to decide:
Do not focus on the others in the marketplace to justify what Z does– focus on the home owner. And keep in mind– Zillow DOES NOT EXIST without owners— it is their homes which put money in Rich and Lloyd’s pockets (well maybe not yet, with all the VC IOUs and such). It is their asset which draws eyeballs and ad money. That ought to be reason enough to merit them the HIGHEST regard.
I apologize, dear readers, for this extended comment.
I would be curious of Sara's response as to these homeowner rights-- whether she agrees that homeowners have them-- or not. (Of course, David, I would love to hear whether you think homeowners have these rights or not)
Thank you Joseph, but we may agree to disagree.
It is my understanding that the source of the underlying data is public property records. My characterization is that Zillow is a commercial public record application. The analogy that I draw is that the legal case reporter books are frequently published by private publishers. There are for example three separate published versions of the Supreme Court Reporter. The information contained is drawn from the court cases with the addition of the publisher's proprietary indexing and comments on the cases. But the case law must be presented in its entirety.
So I do not believe that an owner has the right (or should have right) to remove or opt out of the data base. On that point we disagree.
I believe that Zillow does give an owner an opportunity to identify his home and provide additional information that does not appear in public record (such as landscaping, remodeling, decorating, upgrades) for consideration by someone who is reviewing the record or a Realtor may provide additional information pertaining to a listing for sale. Doesn't that help to avoid the potential for an owner to be harmed ? And, forgive me, but if a buyer showed up at the door with a current appraisal - the owner would not be bound to sell at that price. This is still a negotiation and Zillow is only a piece of the puzzle.
The underlying records of the property appraiser or taxing authorities are generally available on line to the public. Do you suggest that the owner be permitted to remove their records?
There is room here for disagreement, but I am not persuaded to alter my position. Nor do I expect you to be. Technology brings new challenges in areas of privacy and access to public records. It may ultimately take legislation to resolve our differing opinions. But at least our AR family is being exposed to both sides of the question with your help.
I appreciate your opt-out analagy Ted but I think it off point. First of all, opinions on cases & case law are not equivalent to economic values attached to a single home-- they do not affect the marketing of my home-- a transaction-- commerce. There is a huge difference even talking about home values in a neighborhood and MY HOME value. Also, in your analogy, there is a specific case to refer to from which the opinion is drawn-- where is the equivalent on Zillow? Yes, if they listed the raw data & said "based on this raw data our opinion is this value"-- OK your point would be supported. For now, it is not. Zillow's zestimate is cooked up with a "secret sauce" which may be stale and have ingredients that are not edible. The result can be home poisoning.--- i.e. false & misleading information.
Also, I am not suggesting an opt out of the public database. I am suggesting, and homeowners have asked for it, is an opt out of the zestimate, which is a private creation. In fundamental legal terms, a false or misleading statement about my home is not worthy of any right. is it?
Do you agree that a grossly inaccurate zestimate is false & misleading? Simple question no one seems to want to answer. Certainly no one at Zillow has ever answered it. C'mon Ted, give it a whack.
(It would be also be nice if you can answer whether homeowners have the exclusive rights we mentioned. )
If we start here, maybe we can find common ground. But if you think a grossly inaccurate zestimate is not false and misleading or that homeowners do not have the 4 rights set forth (which did not include the right to opt out of public records).. no bridge can ever be built to connect us . In the end it may take a legal case to decide homeowner "rights" vis-a-vis Zillow.
Thanks Michael and Joseph for allowing me to try and catch up. You both are more familiar with the inner workings of Zillow than I am.
First, to close the loop on my law book analogy, The three versions of the Supreme Court Reporters are provided by Lawyers Coop Publishing, West Publishing Company and the official Supreme Court Reporter. The case opinions are, obviously the the same but Lawyers Coop and West have their own proprietary material in the form of indexing the content (the West Key System) and different notes and comments. My point was that there would be no right to exclude a case merely because the publisher was a private commercial publisher. Public records are public records. Not a perfect analogy - but your comments and mine have tended to be late at night and it was the best I could do at the time.
Second, I work in Central Florida where the accuracy of Zestimate is not all that bad. I believe David provided a link that showed the relative accuracy of their data base for different markets - and on quick glance it appeared that my markets were considered to be more accurate than some.
Third, I have assumed that the county property records (which will tend to be at least a year out of date) adjusted for more recent neighborhood sales from county transfer records and applied on a cost per square foot basis would be the simplified explanation of their calculations. Most parcel ID numbers at the county level (I am speaking from my Florida experience now) define the actual neighborhood or subdivision, so trends based up sales in the appropriate subdivision should be applicable. So if either of you or David could let me know what error exists in my thinking or what nuance or additional sophistication exists in their approach - then I would have a better understanding. (I may learn something here, if I am not careful). But that approach would seem to give me a starting point that would enable me to compare properties in a market based upon a consistent set of assumptions (like trying to compare grade point averages from different schools). Although I do not represent that I think the result of this process is a final usable estimate of value - only a starting point.
Then the owner or the real estate professional can improve on the zestimate by adding additional home or neighborhood information derived from actual inspection of subject property and judgment and experience of the professional or the homeowners knowledge of relevant improvements to the property that do not impact on the public records. It would seem to me that that gives the homeowner a chance to protect himself from an incorrect Zestimate - but don't be surprised if the county property appraiser uses the information to raise the assessed value. I don't think you can have it both ways.
But, I am sorry, I cannot agree with the "right" of the homeowner to opt out as long as the information is derived from public or independent sources. The database must be complete to be useful. Perhaps the better analogy would be the credit reporting system. As inaccurate as that data is - and with the potential to harm the consumer - I could not argue for a right of a consumer to opt out of the system.
I do, however, agree with both of you that Zillow and other providers should feature a prominent disclaimer that the figures are based upon public records alone and should not be relied upon as being a comprehensive opinion of value, probably listing factors that are not available to the provider to be considered.
Personally, I believe that the easy availability of this information encourages commerce and facilitates a more informed consumer - just like the private listings of automobile pricing and option pricing protects an car buyer from an uninformed decision at the dealership.
As computer technology improves, there are an abundance of privacy concerns and imperfections that need to be addressed. We are in a brave new world here. But under current law (which can be changed) I do not believe that an opt out privilege is the answer. My opinion only.
Where is David when I need him (o:
I share Michael's handicap (too many meetings today) but I am definitely reading all of this. My favorite quote so far is that this discussion is ... "like chess without the pieces." I couldn't agree more.
Joe - you and Michael don't actually agree. If I read you both correctly, Joe, you are suggesting that all owners opt out of Zestimates whereas Michael is arguing that only sellers do so. Michael - do I have this correct? At times both of you have argued that only "grossly inaccurate" be "hidden" by owners - which we should strike off the list of suggestions because it would be impossible to impliment (how does the seller know / how do you define inaccurate etc. etc.) Hopefully the one thing we can agree is that this is a very complex issue and yes, I'm thoroughly enjoying Ted's level headed analysis join the discussion.
Bottom line:
1) No buyer has ever asked that we allow sellers to hide their Zestimates.
2) Buyers (and others) expect to find Zestimates on Zillow. When they are not there, they complain.
3) The number of owners who have told us they want their home (and Zestimate) on Zillow totally dwarfs the small number of owners who have said they would like to hide their Zestimate.
We listen to our users and innovate on their behalf. It's working extremely well. We don't plan to change that.
I have stated that ANY homeowner that wishes to, should be able opt out of a zestimate. i.e not have it displayed. This applies to ANY zestimate. You often compare what happens in the offline world to justify what should, by extension, happen on the online world-- well, in the offline world you cannot put your estimate of the value of my home on my lawn. The zestimate on my home is a sign on my virtual lawn.
The case of grossly inaccurate zestimates really requires no debate -- they are patently false and misleading. You have never disagreed-- your only objection is "how the heck do we measure what is grossly inaccurate." That is not a logical refutation of the proposition and begs the question. Why do you calculate median error rates? Look at the upper error range and you will see those gross ones. Are error rates calculated AFTER a sale or before it?
Below the Bottom line ;)
1. Homeowners HAVE asked to opt out. Zillow has said no.
2. Whether buyers expect zestimates does not affect 1. It is not a question of what "buyers" want-- it is what homeowners are entitled to, and want.
3. Unknown-- do a poll and see what % of owners want the "right" to opt out. This is quite different than not displaying a zestimate (the exercise of the right).
4. Zillow does not think homeowners have the right to opt-out of ANY zestimate.
David, are you saying there are no grossly inaccurate zestimates?
Ted, your credit system analogy is much better than the case law analogy-- at least now we are dealing with numbers instead of words and attachment of that number to a specific person. But, it is still a flawed comparison. My credit score is not displayed on the internet-- perhaps you think it should be-- if so, we grow even further apart.
BTW, Zillow does not "correct" zestimates based on owner input-- the original zestimates remain.
Good morning Joseph.
Again the credit analogy may apply as you can post an explanation for a negative item - but the negative item remains unless you dispute the accuracy.
No - I believe the credit score should be available only to authorized users. We do not disagree on that one (I will notify the media). But I believe that there is a legal framework under which the credit reporting agencies operate which establishes the confidentiality of their files. This exemption does not exist in the real property valuation field (yet)
David did not address my question as to the method for calculation of the Zestimate. Is there any procedural reason why the Zestimates in one state may be more or less accurate that data in another state because of differences in the accuracy of the underlying data. In other words is the data of the county property appraiser less representative of the market value of the property in some states than in others. In Florida, each county property appraiser is supposed to be establishing an assessed value that is 100% of the market value (although the number will lag by a year in real accuracy because of their appraising cycle). Clearly some counties are not as accurate and there are discrepencies. The rules provide for a request from the homeowner to seek an adjustment - but, naturally, we don't have many people complaining about assessments that are too low. (oh please, please raise my taxes...)
I used to work in mergers and acquisitions of privately held companies. There was always a tension between the income reported by the owner for tax purposes as an indicator of value of the company and what the owner wanted to show as revenue for valuation purposes. We may have the same problem here. If we find a mechanism for Zillow to improve their accuracy - what happens when the property appraiser uses the Zillow information as part of their basis for raising the assessed value in the following cycle. What are the owners going to say then.
In areas where the Zestimate is incorrect - is it your experience that the error is always to the low side - or do we have situations where the value is high? Is there any procedure in Zillow for the the real estate professionals to provide area data to support a review of a block of values and a subsequent adjustment. Can we participate in improving the accuracy of the data?
I certainly support any effort to improve the quality of the database and I support the suggestion that a disclaimer screen be provided to warn users of the possible limitation on the accuracy of the data. But, Joseph, I cannot agree with the suggestion that homeowners be able to hide their data or opt out of the system. From a public policy standpoint, I believe there is more value to having a complete database available. I would suggest that our disagreement on this issue would be an appropriate matter for debate in Congress. But so long as the public record information is available on line, I can see no purpose to excluding segments of data from the commercial applications based upon that data. So to exclude owners data from Zillow - I believe you would have to favor ending availability of public records as well. I do not believe that to be beneficial - nor could I support such a direction.
If there is a rational relationship between the public record data and the Zillow (and other provider) data - and if there is a provision for a homeowner to add information to his home's record - then I believe that the availability of Zillow type data is beneficial and useful. The final correction is a part of the negotiation process in the market place. And it is our task as real estate professionals (Realtors and appraisers) to represent our client's interests and to be familiar with the automated systems out there that the buyers may be viewing and be able to respond with rational argument that the list price is supportable with market data.
Thanks, Joseph for your consideration.
It would take courage for Zillow to do this -- they know owners will choose the opt-out, they just fear how many. The only reason not to give an opt -out is that they distrust owners to take down only inaccurate zestimates. If I was on the payroll I would show them exactly how to do it and solve that problem (Ive given them enuf free advice :)
Ted, thank you. We share a desire for accurate information and the availability of public information, even if it is flawed. Where we diverge is Zillow's blend of public data and proprietary secret sauce producing a value they permanent affix to a property without homeowner consent, which can interfere with the marketing and sale of the property.
Perhaps you could "opt out" Michael. (sorry about that)
I won't add anything further to this thread - but I will look forward to seeing you, Michael, in another. We will assume a truce is declared here.
(by the way - email updates is a global setting that can be toggled off on the settings page, I believe. Then you will be notified of updates only on your AR home page)